This is a report on the showing of the so-called Roswell autopsy at the Third International Symposium on UFOs and Related Phenomena, held by Centro Ufologico Nazionale (CUN) in San Marino (Italy) on May 20th and 21st, 1995, where Philip Mantle was invited to speak about the now famed alien autopsy film.

This report is being posted in the UFO newsgroups and mailing lists via Internet, in order to update colleagues all around the world on what Italian ufologists were able to learn first-hand.

Sources for the report are the following:

1) Direct viewing by CISU members Paolo Fiorino, Matteo Leone, Edoardo Russo and Maurizio Verga of seven slides taken from the same footage shown in the London Museum on May 5th, 1995, with comments by Philip Mantle (BUFORA Director of Investigations) and Chris Cary (associate of footage owner, Ray Santilli);

2) Interviews and discussions by Matteo Leone, Edoardo Russo and Maurizio Verga with Chris Cary, Philip Mantle and some members of CUN who were able to see one of more parts of the video footage, being shown in London and elsewhere;

3) Papers presented by Maurizio Baiata and Philip Mantle at the Symposium.

In several different moments across three days, we could ask the same details to different people involved, in order to cross-check information, were able to discuss among us about the collected answers and to ask more details as needed. We tried to clear some of the rumours spread in the UFO press and through the Internet.

Here follows a resume of what we learned.

1) DESCRIPTION OF PARTS OF THE FOOTAGE BEING SHOWN

Both Philip Mantle and Maurizio Baiata were shown three different footages. Mantle simply confirmed this to us, while we got most details from Baiata, an independent TV producer who has been working with CUN in the last three years and produced ten commercial UFO videotapes in Italy.

Baiata has been following the story since the first mention of the film in a news agency release on March 27th, 1995. He tried and reached Santilli a few days later in Cannes (France) where he was shown the first part of the footage, which we will call: 1.1 - "the Tent footage":

7 minutes of black and white film showing an alleged alien body lying on a table within a tent badly lit by a lamp; the body is partly covered by a sheet, the head is badly visible in the dark, arms and feet are protruding from the cover, two white-dressed but un-masked men are examining the arms and seem to take a large piece of either skin or texture from an arm or the side of the body; the camera is fixed and sometime the back of the assumed operator is seen passing in front of the scene.

This is the same footage Philip Mantle was given a videotaped copy of by Santilli, and shown by either Mantle or Santilli to several different people in the last months. This is the only part of the footage Mantle has got as yet in his possession and he is not allowed to show it publicly.

1.2 - The "Second" Autopsy

On April 25th, Baiata flew from Rome to London in order to be shown a longer footage by Santilli. (Baiata offered to buy the rights for Italy, and arranged for the Italian national TV to take an interest in it.)

When he got there, he was told the laboratory had not yet finished its work, and asked to wait till the following day. He did so and on April 26th he was in Santilli's office where Chris Cary showed him a 12 minutes footage (sum of 4 reels of 3 minutes each) showing an autopsy of a naked alien within an operatory room. The body is very similar to the one in the "first autopsy footage" (see later on), except that it seemingly is more decomposed. Doctors performing this autopsy do not wear protective coveralls as in the earlier one, but do wear surgeon masks.

Philip Mantle confirmed to us that he too was shown this footage.

1.3 - The "First" Autopsy

This is the 18 minutes footage more widely known, since it was shown in the London Museum on May 5th, before more than 100 invited journalists and UFO students. Italians attending were Maurizio Baiata, CUN director and UFO book author Roberto Pinotti, Italian TV Channel 2 (Raidue) director Gianni Minoli, and contactee/visionnaire/stigmatized Giorgio Bongiovanni with five of his followers (he, who usually see the Virgin Mary and talks about ETs as angels of the Lord, was later heard saying the alien was just the same as those seen by him!).

Detailed descriptions of this footage have been posted everywhere, so I won't repeat them here: both Baiata and Pinotti confirmed us all such details.

But here we can add our first-hand testimony: from this footage came the seven slides shown during the Symposium, which we were able to see. Circumstances of the viewing are meaningful:

a) - the slides were not (and are not) in the possession of Philip Mantle;

b) - they were taken in San Marino by Ray Santilli's associate Chris Cary on Saturday 20th and returned London with him on Sunday 21st;

c) - they could not be shown publicly for fear somebody could photograph or videotape them, so two private viewing were arranged.

The first show was on Saturday at lunch time (when the public had left), in the Grand Hotel: only official speakers at the Symposium, CUN directors, the press and local authorities were admitted; the Hotel was cordoned by policemen who checked every single person to verify nobody carried cameras or the like (this 007 scene was filmed by Italian TV and shown in the news on the following day).

The second viewing took place in an underground room at the Symposium, at 7.30 p.m. on the same day, allowing only the press and attending CUN members to enter (and be checked one by one by the policemen against unwanted cameras).

Attending CISU members were also invited to this second viewing by Pinotti and Baiata, probably afraid that we might do some negative PR action. You should know that CUN and CISU are rival organizations and do not keep good relations since 1985, when CISU was formed by former CUN members, CUN representing the 'fundamentalist', ET-believer approach, while CISU maintains a more skeptical-minded attitude. We were asked to keep a respectful approach (do not laugh, nor ridicule the film or the Symposium organizers, either on place or in later comments), which we agreed to.

Among other viewers (we counted 90 to 100 in all) there were Swiss ufologist Bruno Mancusi and Spanish UFO journalist Javier Sierra, whom we later exchanged opinions with.

Here follows a description of:

1.4 - The Seven Slides

1. A humanoid naked body lying on a table in a room; we were told female genitals were visible, but none of us was able to confirm this; the hairless head has two human-like ears in a lower position than us humans, two large Communion-style black eyes wide open, a very small nose, an open mouth. The belly is expanded and pregnant-like. The famed phone with a curled rope is plainly visible on a wall, as well as some surgical instruments in an open box. The right leg is badly wounded (scarnified), and lacks part of it, looking as if void inside.

2. A close-up of the head.

3. The black eye-cover being removed, showing white eye-balls (a small incision between chest and neck is already visible at this stage).

4. The body is being opened up with a L-shaped cutting from above chest to abdomen.

5. The opened body is exposed, with dark inside organs visible but not clearly distinguishable; no chest bones are found.

6. The whole body shown: six fingers are clearly visible on each hand.

7. The head skin is being removed, partly showing the brain. A doctor's gloved hands and part of his white dress are visible.

Additional notes:

a) - the black eye-cover is still on its place in slides 4 through 7: was it re-positioned after the removal shown in slide 3? Or is the correct order unrespected? (But then how to explain that in all slides after the fourth the chest is wide open, while it's intact in slide 3?);

b) - though we were told organic liquids are visible as abundantly flowing in the video, nothing at all is visible in the slides; moreover, neither doctors' gloves nor the table are dirty but white clean in all seven slides;

c) - according to Paolo Fiorino, who is a professional nurse with direct autopsy experience, the table wouldn't seem apt (lacking any draining and visible instruments are too few to be sufficient; moreover, contrary to verbal descriptions, he noticeed no sign of rigor mortis in the body.

These notes are based upon viewing only slides, thus they may be overcome by a viewing of the complete video.

2. - RUMOURS, CONFIRMATIONS AND REBUTTALS

We were able to ask a lot of questions and tried to verify several rumours heard or read of (mostly on Internet exchanges). Here's a summary.

2.1 - Phone cable: Mantle told that curled cables in use for telephones as early as the '40s were found in a book.

2.2 - Truman visiting the body: Mantle and Baiata were adamant they never saw nor heard of Truman being visible in any part of the film.

2.3 - Detlev Bronk and MJ-12: Mantle told that two names are plainly visible on a note-book held by someone during the autopsy: Detlev Bronk (the well known physiologist allegedly member of MJ-12) and a Dr. Williams. On the contrary, Baiata was adamant that no name could be visible on any note-book, because of its position; the same as for the rumoured 'MJ-12' writing. But Baiata also told us that he saw a sort of introductory headline on the 12 minutes 'second autopsy' footage he was privately shown on April 26th: 'Autopsy performed by Dr. Detlev Bronk'.

2.4 - Kodak analysis: Mantle denied that any analysis have been performed by Kodak. The company did only confirm that symbols and serial numbers visible on the film were real and recycled every 20 years, in particular in 1947, 1967 or 1987.

2.5 - Brazilian documentary: Mantle denied the story that an 'Unsolved Mysteries' reporter would have recognized the autopsy footage as part of a Brazilian UFO documentary.

2.6 - Vallee's role: Mantle reported (we never heard it before) and denied that the footage was first offered to UFO researcher Jacques Vallee.

2.7 - Nagaitis' role: Cary denied the rumour that Carl Nagaitis (press agent of Philip Mantle and co-author of his 1994 book on UFO abductions, 'Without Consent') was also the press agent of Ray Santilli, though he admitted they knew each other.

2.8 - Cary's role: I asked Chris Cary (variously described as Santilli's lawyer, accountant or partner) what his usual work activity was and what his role is in this affair: he replied he usually is in the film/TV documentary business, that he was acquainted with Santilli, and that Santilli called him to help cope with the growing media interest: he is now responsible for the marketing of the footage.

3. NEW INFORMATION

The following information emerged, that was as yet unkown to us:

3.1 - Exact chronology: Santilli got the footage from Jack Barnett (real name, officially confirmed by Mantle in his speech) in June 1993, but according to Cary Santilli had known about it for at least a year (if true, this contradicts in part the known version). Mantle learned of the footage in 1993, phoned Santilli and asked to view it but got a refuse so he dismissed it as a tall tale and forgot it; the first one to view it would have been pop singer Reg Presley, in late 1993 or January 1994, and when he told the story in TV Mantle went back to Santilli and finally was able to view it and got Santilli's promise to show it in Sheffield. Mantle confirmed that the world media explosion was casual: he told of the footage to a local journalist friend while promoting the Sheffield congress Mantle is organizing for BUFORA, but the news went on the national wires and soon he began receiving phone calls from over the world.

3.2 - Revising the Roswell time-line: Baiata told us he was told by Santilli that the footage consisted in several different recordings taken between June 5th and July 5th, 1947, in Roswell and Fort Worth: this would put back the Roswell crash about one month earlier than the original story. By the way, Mantle told that cameraman Barnett was allegedly ordered to Roswell from Washington officials.

3.3 - 91 minutes, not all good: Baiata was also told that some other short footages from the film have been viewed, but he was not shown them. Cary told that not all 91 minutes are as good as the three already shown parts.

3.4 - BUFORA attitude: Mantle confirmed to me that the other BUFORA directors are skeptical, and that no one of them has yet been able to view the footage, not even at the London Museum showing (as well as none of the American Roswell researchers, who claimed to be skeptical). He himself was very cautious in his public comments, and also told that he officially asked Santilli for a complete copy, offering BUFORA facilities for analysing it at best.

3.5 - Spielberg's movie and the Roswell footage: Mantle told us that the famed early 1994 UK tabloid story of Spielberg planning a new movie on Roswell and MJ-12 based on real footage was actually originated by Carl Nagaitis, who had learnt of the Santilli's film and hoped to force him to come public with it.

3.6 - Marketing strategy: we asked Cary what Santilli's and his intentions are exactly as of showing/selling the footage. Cary explained the plan is to have public interest raised by gradual revelations (still pictures from the footage will be released in June) up to the climax with the footage showing at the 8th International UFO Congress in Sheffield, next August: at that moment they will sell the rights for each nation, so to gain a maximum price.

3.7 - Highest price offer yet: Santilli allegedly received and rejected an offer from the Israel TV for world exclusive rights on the footage: 7 million dollars.

3.8 - Santilli on WWW: Cary told us that Merlin (Santilly's company) is planning a World-Wide Web server to be on the Internet with their own homepage soon.

4. - CONCLUDING REMARKS

I don't want to comment this affair now, since most of the above reported information is second-hand or anecdotal, though I hope it may be of interest.

As of the slide showing, I was not impressed by the scenes as I was expecting from an autopsy. It did not give me the sensation of a (dead) living being, but you know, I had no previous experience of such kind.

This report, with its spelling and orthography mistakes and errors, was completed by Edoardo Russo on May 24th, 1995, based upon personal memory and a comparison with memories and notes by Matteo Leone, who also helped to revise the present text.

You may reach us by mail, phone, fax or e-mail as follows: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, I-10121 Torino, Italy;
phone (24 hours): +39-11-3290279;
fax (24 hours): +39-11-5617124;
e-mail: edoardo.russo@pmn.it

end of posting....

Follow up to the above.....

---------- Forwarded message ----------
~From: Maurizio Verga 

Following excellent Edoardo Russo's report about the show of seven stills portraing an alleged alien creature under autopsy (stills claimed to come from the Roswell original military footage), I am going to add a few more information and personal remarks:

1) I had a quite long talk with Mr. Chris Cary (associate of Mr. Ray Santilli) about their plans in exploiting the footage. It seems they are launching a real marketing campaign, which first goal is just the education of people on the Roswell affair. The story of the saucer crash and its recovery (including dead aliens) is still mainly a knowledge restricted to few UFO buffs. It must become a popular argument and possibly enter the imagery of the common guy. So, starting in early June, the still will be released to the press: they'll start to cover massively the subject worldwide and great TV coverage is expected. Due to the exciting idea behind the story (ETs have been actually visiting Earth and the US government hide everything to the pubblic), people will be expecting the release of the footage to see by their own eyes what described by press and TV. The climax is scheduled for the August UFO Congress in Sheffield: the media will be shown with one of the footage reels (likely one of the two autopsies). In the meanwhile, Santilli will have already find an agreement for selling at best the distribution rights of the complete footage (country by country), much more convenient than selling one international exclusivity right. For the time being, Cary suggested Santilli to wait and see: they have been receiving so many offers from all over the world (three from Australia alone !), that it is necessary to screen them carefully. I believe such attitude a good way to rise the price as well ! This promotional campaign will create a real market of video buyers at both levels (distributors and consumers) just wisely exploiting the mass-media impact.

2) Mr. Mantle confirmed that the rumour according to which Vallee was offered the same footage during his visit to Brasil (a few years ago) is false. He contacted directly Jacques Vallee in San Francisco.

3) Mr. Mantle claims having no control over the whole affair. He plays the role of the expert presenting the document to the UFO community. He also claims to be cautious about the footage. Very politely, he told me "... don't ask me too much about the case, ask directly to Mr. Santilli at the August Sheffield UFO congress (where both I and Santilli will have a lecture)".

4) One of the stills offers a complete front view of the alleged alien corpse. The left leg is heavily injured and some parts of its flesh seems to have been removed by the incident. Anyway, the visible inside of the leg looks "empty": I felt being in front of something far from a real severely damaged leg.

5) At least two stills portrayed the belly completely opened and the "skin" folded away so that the inner surface of it was visible. It looked to have a rhombus-like patterned aspect with seemingly "metallic" reflections: the rombhus pattern was lighter than the background. I got the feeling it was very stiff, like cartoon or tarred paper. By sure it was not flexible at all. In another slide a piece of such a "skin" is shown just above the creature head, covering most of its skull and forehead (I didn't get the impression - as reported by Edoardo - that the head skin had been removed and the brain exposed).

6) Mr. Mantle reported to have met Mr. Santilli occasionally during the press conference held in London in May/June 1993 to promote the "Fire in the Sky" movie. He heard from him about the footage, yet the refusal of showing it let him consider the meeting not worth of a follow-up. Early this year (January, if I emember well), Mr. Mantle met again Mr. Santilli at a BUFORA lecture: that was the starting point of the new story, which originated from an interview of Mantle himself to a local newspaper.

7) Phone cable: Mr. Mantle also reported that a request for information to the British TELECOM museum confirmed that such a kind of curly cable was in use with phones since the mid '40s.

8) KODAK analysis: one of the general managers of KODAK UK offered a complete analysis on the film in one full day. His availability came as a consequence of contacts with Mr. Mantle. Seemingly Mr. Santilli didn't reply to such an offer.

9) According to Mr. Chris Cary not all the whole set of canisters has been viewed (!). Many reels are in poor conditions and after 50 years the film is very sensitive to light and handling, so they take a lot of care with it. above notes have been written on the ground of personal memories of different talks with Mr. Philip Mantle (including his own lecture) and Chris Cary at the UFO Congress held in San Marino in May 20-21, 1995.

For any enquiry, you may leave an email message: maurizio_verga@msn.com